amplifier power claims -bogus!

Discussion in 'CB Radio Forum' started by M818, Jun 11, 2011.

  1. M818

    M818 Light Load Member

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    This is a short story about the claims made by those who offer linear amplifiers and the lying meters and tricks they often use, whether they know it or not. Some reasons why amplifiers die will also be discussed. If I take heat off purveyors of such gear, so be it. At least I know how to measure power and how to keep the equipment in one piece. By the way, I just noticed amateurlinearamplifiers.com, a seller of linears I assume, has had its site suspended. Pity, it was a good reference with lots of amplifier pictures.

    Anywhere you go, whatever CB linear you see, the seller will often claim that the unit puts out about twice what is really does. It is because of the way the power is measured and the meters used to measure it. A measurement of the undistorted output of the amplifier in question, using a decent wattmeter and a dummy load, will show the truth they would rather not let you see.

    Several factors contribute to the outlandish claims. The true power rating of an amplifier must be measured with undistorted RF power output at the peak of the voice signal in AM operation (PEP Output).

    Almost every time, a "CB type" wattmeter like a Dosy or Workman will read 1.5 to 2 times higher than the power shown on a ham, military, or Bird meter. A quality meter designed for accuracy, connected to a proper load, is the only way to honestly measure watts.

    Another error with "CB wattmeters" with regard to AM operation is that most of them "swing" a lot under modulation even when the average power has not increased much.. Whistle into the mike, and see the power shoot up to the end of the scale! Reality is not so. A good wattmeter used with a properly adjusted (not chopped up) CB will swing the needle very little on modulation if the amplifier is linear. You can put Dosy and Bird wattmeters both inline with the load or antenna and see this.

    A good ham radio wattmeter costs a little more than a CB wattmeter and is much more accurate. No need for a Bird unless you are building or repairing. A ham radio meter has to be accurate because hams need to carefully observe a 1500W peak power limit. What is sometimes done in practice may be another story, but the various ham gear manufacturers offer accurate meters for this purpose. It's considered a piece of necessary test gear. A Bird is more costly but only gives 2-4% better accuracy.

    CB Linear manufacturers have also tended to give amplifiers model numbers that suggest a certain power level, and not specify whether it is input or output power (power used by the amplifier, or power put out to the antenna by the amplifier, two very different things!).

    Whether it is a tube or solid state amplifier, this practice prevails. That's why a "TX-800" is often a 400 watt amplifier, not an 800 watt amplifier as implied. The "TX-800" has four 2SC2879 transistors which are rated for 100 watts output each. Perhaps the TX-800 consumes 800 watts -a far more likely scenario.
    The old HEC-300 tube linear does make 300 watts inside its high voltage power supply. Clean RF Output from the unit is about 165 watts.
    The Sweet Sixteen is an 8-transistor, 800 watt amplifier. Not 1200W.

    Do they lie or trick (overdrive)? Not so, they say! "It does make 800 Bird Watts!" OK: Overdriving it till it's about to fail is one way to get almost 800 watts out of the "TX-800" 400 watt amplifier, even using a good meter. Do they know the truth? I bet most of them do.

    Just as with a guitar amplifier that has an undistorted RMS output of 100 watts RMS, but can be severely over-driven increasing the wattage to 200W RMS, an RF amplifier can be overdriven with the same result. It's not good for it and the extra CB power is not heard by the receiver at the other end.

    The point is not to be fooled by the CB-shop demonstration of an overdriven amplifier, even with a Bird meter.

    Look up the transistors and see what the ratings are. Those are the facts. Any other claims are incorrect.

    Now, about driving a transistor amp hard: How many times do we see an amp with big power claims and "1 driving 2, or 1 driving 4"? The problem that comes into play here is that the driver transistor may be able to make 60-100 watts, but the 4 output transistors it is driving only need about 6 watts each for them to reach full rated output. Look it up in the data sheets.

    The way RF power transistors are made is that instead of just one 'stack' of silicon 1/8" to 3/16" square, there is usually the 1/8" piece on the bottom (the "collector" element), then a rectangular grid of a hundred or more tiny almost microscopic little stacks or bars of P and N silicon which make up the base and emitter elements of the transistor. It's done that way to improve performance.

    So there is a 60 watt amp (driver stage) driving a load (four output transistors) that can only take 24 watts. One by one, the tiny little bars of material crack, melt, or are just burned up from overloading and overheating. The amount of clean power the individual transistor can make diminishes over time due to this abuse. MOSFET amplifiers can suffer a similar fate when constantly over-driven but those devices fail in a different way. They still die and the money spent on the amp is gone.

    Why are the amps designed poorly to fail like this? Profit. CB users often don't know better, they just look at the watts.

    Your goal, Mr. CB linear designer, is to wring every last penny's worth of power out of as few amplifying devices as possible!

    What to do about this mess? Back to the beginning: find out what transistor types are in the output stage of the amplifier, take the wattage from the data sheet (online), and reduce the power from the radio until their combined wattage is never exceeded on voice peaks. The amp will last decades.

    There are very precise ways to do this but an easy way to get close is to set the radio power so that with the dead key, the amp is making 1/4 of whatever rating you have determined is the max for the amp in question.

    One of the attachments has pictures of the inside of a typical RF transistor showing the structures described. It might be interesting to read a little about it. Scare the !##* out of the next tech you run into.
     

    Attached Files:

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  3. Turbo-T

    Turbo-T Road Train Member

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    Reminds me back when I was heavily into car audio....you'd see low end amps like Boss, Rockwood, Jensen, etc claiming on the outside cover to be putting out 250 watts, 500 watts....and these amps were selling for like $75 or whatever, what they didn't tell you is the number on the outside was peak power, not true power like rpms. Also those amps were not the best. The pros said it best, you pay $1 for every true watt you get.

    I guess it's sort of like how people get their rocks off hearing how much horsepower an engine produces, yet could give two spits less how much torque it makes. There's an old saying "horsepower sells, torque is what moves you". I think the same applies to amps in terms of RMS vs PEP.
     
    rabbiporkchop Thanks this.
  4. M818

    M818 Light Load Member

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    I think I have one of those old 200 watt per channels amps with the built-in EQ on the front. 1" tall x 6' wide.. What did they do, maybe 12-15 real watts per channel to 4 Ohms?

    Been a long time since the car stereo days but I used to install them.
    Do you remember the Sanyo PA-6050 and PA-6100? The first really powerful car stereo amps in the 1980's to have honest ratings IIRC. I saved for months to buy one and blew up a few 6x9's with it. Speakers also had lying ratings!
     

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  5. Turbogus

    Turbogus Light Load Member

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    Excellent post M818! Thanks!

    As for myslef I've been running amps since the '70's. Not having the broadcast expertise of the ham folks nor meters I judiciously used/using my 11 meter gear only occasionally without the use of noise toys or other distorting gear.
    My base rig is an old Cobra 142 and initally I overdrove the amp. luckily it was a cheap fix and the shop (I can't remember who it was) mentioned that the radio was pushing about 10 watts, so they added a potentiometer on the side of the case so I could tune down the output of the radio so's not to overdrive the amp. Granted a quality meter would've helped my estimated tics on the pot, but I've not had any issues with this rig in several years, save for meter lights that with the help of this and other forums undated to LED's.
    Again thanks for your comprehesive post!
     
  6. Gadfly

    Gadfly Medium Load Member

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    Good post from M818. Another trick the CB shops will use is to "accidentally" forget to change the meter from "forward" to "SWR", or adjust it to read what they WANT it to read so the meter will "swing" forward with a completely inaccurate reading. The shops know that CBers desparately cling to the notion of BIG WATTS being the do-all, BE-all of radio simply because they haven't been trained to know: they are appliance operators, mostly, and they couldn't be expected to know about RF. Too many shops are crooked, and make big money with this. Many of them are not truly "technicians".

    Big watts is not the way. Oh, it may give satisfaction to the small of mind to think he can tread on the other users, walk on their signals, even splatter over several bands. You can do far more with LESS power and judicious use of what frequency resources are available to you. Patience and courtesy goes a long way---a commodity that is in short supply in this new "ME, ME, ME" era.

    The hams do have an advantage in that they have far more space to play in, and their frequencies span enough spectrum that the atmospherics, and the characteristics thereof, are (can be, will be) different on a different band at a different time of day. Hams learn, over time, how to USE these characteristics to their advantage, and can often make hobby contacts over the entire globe using small amounts of power. Sometimes they will use as little as a watt or two (called "QRP" operation), and it is FUN to see just how little power one can use and still talk over the world. Oh, there's a few power freaks that just can't wean themselves off this power, power thing, and they also are the ones who usually don't understand the rules governing their service. Part 97 (paraphased) states that one is to use the least power necessary to make and maintain communications. If you can do it, IOW, with 10 watts, use 10 watts. If it takes 50 watts, use 50 watts. If it takes 1500 watts, then a ham is legally permitted to use 1500 watts (Legal limit). But! If everybody else is using 100 watts successfully, and he is using 1500 watts ROUTINELY, then he could be cited for using excessive power-----EVEN THO HE IS ALLOWED TO USE UP TO 1500 WATTS IF NECESSARY!:biggrin_25524: Confusing, eh?
    But that's how the rules work, and hams are expected to learn these things and use power correctly. It is also the reason amateur amplifiers must meet strict standards. As far as "CB amps" go, there's not supposed to BE such a thing anyway, so's......................, we have this "anything goes" thing going on.

    I would encourage anyone to try for the amateur license simply because it offers everything that CB radio was never even intended to do. Everything the CBer is looking for is in amateur radio: frequencies, flexibility, power, equipment, activities, service, and training; a kind of self-improvement, if you will, if you really love radio and want to learn something about it. You don't have to be an electronics engineer, but you can learn bunches and gobs about electronics, simple circuits, building things, and how antennas work. You can learn how to string up a simple dipole, learn how "polarization" works--a whole passel of stuff! You won't need splattering amps or "extra" channels that belong to someone else. You won't have to worry about FCC getting after you because amateur radio offers enough fun and teaching about radio, and because of all the things that are LEGAL within it overshadows and dwarfs CB. You won't NEED to talk on them "funny" channels; you'll have plenty of "channels" your other CB buddies can't go onto (if that floats yer boat). Just observe the rules: they have enough leeway to provide all you seek with radio!

    "Power" isn't everything!

    GF
     
    Snailexpress and Razor3 Thank this.
  7. RubberFrog

    RubberFrog Bobtail Member

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    Wow. I wish I was a hammy. You guys sound super cool.
     
  8. Gadfly

    Gadfly Medium Load Member

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    There's nothing stopping you from enjoying amateur radio, either. The tests are (entry) very easy and will give you access to parts of 10 Meters (28.000-29.700 MHZ), 6 Meters (50.0000-54.000 MHZ), 2 Meters (144.000-148.000), 70 CM (420.000-450.000) and a lot of frequencies in between and ABOVE that. It includes AM, Single Sideband, CW, Digital modes, and FM. Many of these include FM repeaters that will give you telephone quality comms out over several states (See the Mt Mitchell, NC repeater on 145.19 which you can access with just a few watts and talk from NC to Ohio at times! With this "Technician license", you have an entry level to REAL radio fun while learning and gaining experience you can use as you advance in the hobby. The tests are multi-choice and are given at selected sites around the country--usually by an Amateur Radio Club near you.

    Amateur Radio is not an "exclusive club". It just sets the bar just a teensy bit higher and challenges you to use your abilities to achieve something you can be proud of! It is a gift that keeps on giving.

    There is a CB myth that amateur equipment is WAY more expensive than CB stuff. Not so! For example, you can get a brand new, in-the-box Yaesu FT-1900, 50 watt, does NOT need to be modified, 2 Meter radio for around $120. It will out-talk any CB radio flat-footed with a 19", 1/4 wave whip! :biggrin_255: REALLY! Give it a shot!

    GF
     
    Jerry82 Thanks this.
  9. M818

    M818 Light Load Member

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    Good point on the minimum necessary power, Gadfly. I didn't bring it up because it was not bearing on the power meter subject but some idiot hams don't get it.

    Hey RubberFrog, like he says the license is very easy to get these days. Lots of rules though, if you can deal with that you will have only friends on the air. "Practice tests" at qrz.com, pick the "technician" to start with. Ham radio has an extra bit of fun inside because you can build your own stuff if you want. You don't have to though, there's plenty in the stores. A good operator who can stay cool under stress and difficult environmental conditions is as important as the one who can repair a radio in the field and keep a station on the air. All talents are important.

    Note that individual hams are 100% not cool sometimes. There are a lot of hammy hambones who for some twisted reason want to be on the air and spread their idiocy. It's those rotten operators that curse and play music on the air, jam other stations, run excess power, and usually could not scatter manure with ten rakes tied behind them and the bull chasing after (much less operate calmly in an emergency or fix their own radio or build something, anything..). The FCC eventually gets them due to complaints and recordings. Haha maybe they came from broken homes or drink too much!

    I don't know everything and if there are mistakes in what I post, they should be pointed out.

    The only reason I posted about this topic is that there is so much b-s about CB linears that I figured if I could try to clear up some of it, operators might make better choices and their gear would work better and last longer. It's mostly an article I had already written a long time ago. I'm not going to be one of the holier than thou or stuck up hams and judge the CB operator with the linear.

    Most hams like newer stuff but I like the old-time classics and have been working on restoring these three old transmitters. The brown one is a 1947 RCA 250W broadcast AM band transmitter I dragged off a mountain in Kentucky to convert to ham use and the blue one is a 1957 home-built 1000 watt ham unit found in a scrap yard in Dallas. The gray one is an 1948 Link 250W FM Police base station free from an estate. The guy was going to part it out so I felt obliged to take it as it was complete.
     

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    Last edited: Jun 14, 2011
  10. WA4GCH

    WA4GCH Road Train Member

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    Nice toys :biggrin_25519:

    I just don't have any room for the racks here even though most of my test gear is rack mounted .....

    Right now I'm stuck with what i have in one side of our aluminum room to keep the wife from going to war over it ....

    AND she has her general class license ....
     
  11. WA4GCH

    WA4GCH Road Train Member

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    Thats what I run in the car it does everything I need on 2 meters :biggrin_25525:

    As for DX I have worked 1200 miles on 2 meters and a local here has more than 40 states worked on 2 meters.
     
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